Curse

glenn_rolfe · Nov 15, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

This is typical of arenas players who don't understand 8x8 combat - or should I say "teamwork".

borkbork · Nov 15, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

If I sum your post up correctly, you're basically saying that there is no place for the likes of me in your elitist club, right? Or in what way I am supposed to "change" since obviously being willing to learn and listen seems not to be enough?

I think he was referring to pick-ups in general. You're probably one of the rare exceptions that are willing to listen and learn.

This is why groups seem 'elitist' because we've all been mentally scarred by 99% of pickups. I would rather just log off guild wars, take a break, than to waste time and argue over skill listings with a pick-up.

If I ever need an extra player, I'll definitely contact you...

Rey Lentless · Nov 15, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

I was referring in general to what I've seen in several threads like this, and from what I see in districts and pms in game.

You seem to have a good attitude about not knowing everything yet, but obviously the pvp guild comments would apply to you.

I see the 'elitest' crap all the time and don't really understand where you people are coming from. When someone makes a ranked pug, there's an implication that you're taking.. ranked people. Would it be fair to take 6 ranked people and then take a chance on a random unranked person after saying rank 3+, 6+, 9+? If it in the team's best interest to take random unranked people, we'd do so. PUG leaders have a commitment to take people who give their team the best chance to win, not just for themselves, but for the other 6 people in the team. There are crap rank 9's I wouldn't play with, and unranked people I know that I would play with. I know rank doesn't tell you everything, but when you're making a group and making a decision on a random person.. should it be someone unranked, or ranked?

Joining a pvp guild is your best option. You can prove you're a quality player and person to a group of people, and then join guild groups where your rank doesn't matter because you've already proved yourself to that specific group. Expecting ranked pugs to just take your word for it, and having to constantly prove yourself to new people isn't going to work out very well. Second best option is developing a friend's list that has like minded people in a similiar situation that you have played with.

I started out playing tombs fairly recently, so I know it's certainly possible and not really all that hard.

There's a catch 22 that a lot of the people complaining don't seem to grasp. If there are so many good quality unranked players that we should take in our groups.. then you can make your own unranked groups and win with them. The fact that you complain that the groups you join are crap, just supports that the rank system is working and that we shouldn't be taking our chances with those players.

Sephir Demange · Nov 15, 2005, 10:10 PM // 22:10

The whole rank system was thrown vastly out of proportioned by IWAY. While I admit I ran it for about a week, it completely made the game uninteresting. Make your way there doing something that is fun, rather than something that is mildly effective, it is possibly. I started catching on to why most people detested IWAY, and I found a few reason of my own to hate it.
1.) It is simply used as an engine to gain rank 3 or even 6. Which means that all the people who scraped and slaved and learned their way there are devalued.
2.) Most IWAY groups have an offhanded chance to get lucky against a balanced build. This has several effects. a.) It is entirely demoralizing to the group that spent all this time putting together an experimental build, to attempt to bring something NEW into tombs. b.) It strengthens the misconception that IWAY is a great thing to run in tombs.

Both of those things have really appalling effects on the entire HoH experience. If you want any proof of it, just go into any American District in Tombs and see what groups people are asking for. 90% of them are either Minion Factory and IWAY or many horrid spinoff's thereof. The next effect is that many r3's and even r6's have NO CLUE what to do in any other build. This has made tombs into a situation where "who you know" is more important than "what you can do". My only advice is this, work on 1 character build that is absolutely vital, strive to perfect it either in TA or Tombs, and play often with as many new people as possible. You make connections this way, and friends that you can continue to run with.

glenn_rolfe · Nov 15, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

what are european districts like??

Fantus · Nov 15, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

There's a catch 22 that a lot of the people complaining don't seem to grasp. If there are so many good quality unranked players that we should take in our groups.. then you can make your own unranked groups and win with them. The fact that you complain that the groups you join are crap, just supports that the rank system is working and that we shouldn't be taking our chances with those players.

This isn't really a catch...:

When 8 unranked people who don't have much experience in Tombs band together, they tend to get raped because they don't know the maps well or which strategies will work there.

If 7 experienced people take one unranked person with them and assign a specific job for them, they can get the job done and learn something in the process. Eventually they will become a valuable asset for your team.

I am not saying you all should become full time teachers or, so, but every now and then it might not hurt to give it a try. If the unranked guy totally screws up, you still can kick them and get someone else.

It's like in PvE: How many people fail to complete Thunderhead Mission on a daily basis? Lots! Can you imagine how easily a team which got badly raped on one try will breeze through the same mission when some experienced players assign jobs for them and tell them what to do? I have seen that more than once, really.

@borkbork: That would be cool... really cool!

Del12 · Nov 15, 2005, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

what are european districts like??

Terrible, instead of looking for rank3+ or something, they are looking for rank9+ and even at rank4 I didn't get response most of the time.

I mean, honestly, after rank3, you have enough experience and probably most skills unlocked where you can play almost any build, I think. This of course is not true I guess if someone plays one character build all the time.

Rey Lentless · Nov 15, 2005, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Eventually they will become a valuable asset for your team.

It's not our job to make you or anyone else a decent player. Yes, the 7 players +1 unranked might do ok, but you're just essentially leeching then. No thanks.

Divine Elemental · Nov 15, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

i dont agree that its hard to get a group
thats probably me

Therran Cloudhart · Nov 16, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06

I have the same problem, groups are ALWAYS looking for monks, and if i do find a group, sometimes I get a connection problem.

Hannibel · Nov 16, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

you can make your own rank 3+ group, my friends isnt rank 3 and he starts them up sometimes, there more then plenty of guilds that are recruiting in tombs every single day the only thing they really require is that you have vent or ts and do pvp and are active.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 16, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

I should probably first clarify that I am not a top player - I've won Halls before, but I don't go into the Halls and win every day or any such thing, even with full guild groups, but we usually do win a lot of battles and get through a fair few of the maps.

My guild is very active and we have enough people on to do Tombs most nights, but despite this I still try to take time out of my week to not play with the people I know, and instead set up an unranked PuG in Tombs.

These PuGs aren't made to a set build, generally - I prefer to make a balanced build. I invite an assortment that I think will be useful and generally let people play what they're comfortable with, though I'll usually ask people to list their builds and offer a suggestion or two ("Swap out Troll Ungent for Savage Shot.") I get people on Ventrillo, call targets and organize the Monks, and head in.

And the first thing I've come to understand is that Rey Lentless is partially right - there are a lot of horrible players out there. Mending Wa/Mos, people who don't understand their own skillbar, and people who can't follow targets despite my attempts at organization.

But on the flipside of the coin, there are a lot of good players who simply can't get a group any other way. I've had people in these PuGs (many of whom later joined my guild) who were previously members of top 10 guilds, or alpha testers, or who just have more PvP experience than I can hope to get.

I've had good reasonably skilled players thank me for starting the PuG that let them defeat their first IWAY or see the Halls for the first time. I don't do it to win, I do it because these people can't find a group any other way, and because a lot of them are really skilled players. Its proven among the best recruiting methods, as well as just generally fun - win or lose, I don't mind showing people how to play the game effectively, or helping them to learn the maps. For those who aren't interested in wasting their time running IWAY there have to be other halfway decent methods.

New people have to be brought into the PvP community - a rank-based environment like this is going to make for a very stagnant bunch of players. Rank often does indicate experience in Tombs, but I can teach experience - I can't teach a dork who ran IWAY a lot to be a more respectful or better player.

Anyway, while I naturally can't guarantee anything given my limited schedule these days, and I welcome folks here to PM me or add me to their friends list if they're interested in joining a group of mine sometime. I'll certainly try my best to include who I can.

So many high-ranked players complain about lack of competition in Tombs - but complaining won't change a thing unless they also decide to do something about it.

Good gaming.

Divine Elemental · Nov 16, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

as u cant find your group

bind to make your own its faster and sometimes mostly to me shows better results

Rey Lentless · Nov 16, 2005, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

better results

Lies.

Better win next time I play with you then.

Sephir Demange · Nov 16, 2005, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Also, you need to remember, a very large group of people play guildwars. While I wouldn't mind running with a slightly underexperienced but patient and intelligent player, most low ranked or unranked players are age 8 and foul mouthed and annoy the piss out of the rest of the group. Why subject people who I normally group with to that?

tomcruisejr · Nov 16, 2005, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephir Demange

1.) It is simply used as an engine to gain rank 3 or even 6. Which means that all the people who scraped and slaved and learned their way there are devalued.

FOTMs are meant for Fame Farming, you know that.

ill just give a cookie to people who played FOTMs before and benefited from it and now start to hate the current one.

why prevent /rank emotes from getting to almost all gw players?

Quote:

2.) Most IWAY groups have an offhanded chance to get lucky against a balanced build. This has several effects. a.) It is entirely demoralizing to the group that spent all this time putting together an experimental build, to attempt to bring something NEW into tombs. b.) It strengthens the misconception that IWAY is a great thing to run in tombs.

they should learn to patch it up and try it again till all the IWAYs that they face in the tombs will succumb to their build.

whenever i get my trapper inside the tombs, i'm not interested about beating the opposite team. i'm interested about the other group's reactions to our offense/defense and their tactics on how to beat us. and we try to patch it up.

the old classic iway is so different from the current incarnation of iway. and yet they still call it iway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jules

Our team got wiped by you guys.. I was the lamer asking what 54 squared was in all chat.

we do also get wiped. maybe it was just our lucky day.

. see ya inside the tombs.

Fantus · Nov 16, 2005, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

It's not our job to make you or anyone else a decent player.

That's a desicion you have to make for yourselves, of course. The benefit for you would be having more people to form groups with. Or even having more and better opposition to keep your PvP exciting. Or do you consider raping unranked teams in 1:30 min really that much fun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Yes, the 7 players +1 unranked might do ok, but you're just essentially leeching then. No thanks.

Leeching is sucking somebody's experience without giving something back in return. I think an unranked player could still be valuable for your team if you assign a job for them and maybe help them with their skillbar a bit. Admittely, they still won't be as effective as a rank 6 player playing the same character, but they will do fine. That's not really leeching, I think. I am NOT saying go drop a rank 6 player and replace them with an unranked guy or so, but in the cases where you are short on one player to complete your team - why not take one of them in? I have seen groups of 7 people looking for EXACTLY the build I was running at the moment, still refusing taking me in because I am unranked. They were still there after like 30 minutes...

But as I said, it's a choice you have to make for yourselves. The current system WILL keep new players away from PvP since they can neither get into a group that can win nor can they win all by themselves. Eventually, they will go back to PvE or Arenas where they can have fun and don't have to feel inferior. Sure, every now and then a new player will fight themselves through the rank barrier and will get accepted by you (possibly by IWAYing for a month or so...

). More often, they will get frustrated and go back to what they did before. Your little club will become smaller, since sometimes rank 9+ players quit GW. too. If you actually WANT that, keep on what you doing. Again, nobody can force you to pass like 5% of your wisdom to a new player so they can make themselves useful ("useful" as in "NOT leeching").

What I know is that sometimes I am proud to have helped several dozen players through missions like Thunderhead or Thirsty River. Some of those players ended up in my guild, too...

tomcruisejr · Nov 16, 2005, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Fantus, imho its better to get your friends to go pvp or make new friends inside the tombs, who are also trying to get into groups. losing lots in the beginning is normal. learn from mistakes.

advantage of pvping with the people that you know is that there wont be a pressure if your group loses. and there wont be pinpointing nor double talking.

doing pvp and pve with friends is fun.

i love the moments when we were talking bout real life stuffs on GW text chat while waiting to face our opponents in tombs.

Fantus · Nov 16, 2005, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

doing pvp and pve with friends is fun.

Yes, it is.

In my personal case, after talking to (and persuading) people for some time now, my guild now even HAS a PvP squad (yes, I think we're still about as good as an unranked PUG put together by blind invites, but it's still fun!

). But we only can meet at weekends since we have players in different timezones, which is why I sometimes try to get in Tombs PUGs as well. Actually I was HOPING to find some friends there who play at the same weird hours I sometimes do, but it's hard to find friends if nobody takes you into their group.

The point that at least nobody would blame a defeat on "the unranked guy" if all players are unranked guys is a very valid one, though. Maybe crawling to Rank 3 by hoping you SOMETIMES will encounter a team that's even more clueless than your own IS the way to go. I just think that the current system is not really ideal to get new players interested in PvP and most important: make them stay there.

Maybe the real solution would be a matching system like there is in GvG. Make good teams fight other good teams and make clueless teams fight other clueless teams (at least in the first map in Tombs, I am not indicating that I should actually be able to get to HoH or so). This way unranked people could get a fame point every now and then, without solely having to rely on IWAY.

Rey Lentless · Nov 16, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

The current system WILL keep new players away from PvP since they can neither get into a group that can win nor can they win all by themselves.

If they're not good enough, smart enough, persistant enough, willing enough to join a pvp guild.. etc to become an experienced tombs player.. then good riddance, hope they do go back to arena.

You don't want to join a guild with tombing interests, that's a decision you made. You want us to let you in our groups, but you aren't willing to help yourself. There are things you can do, and you're not doing them.. that's your problem, not a problem with the tombing community.

Quote:

Maybe the real solution would be a matching system like there is in GvG.

No, the real solution is to have the people who aren't successful to change what they're doing to become successful instead of coming here to bitch about the 'broken system' that they want to revolve around them, instead of adapting themselves to the system.